[daria dil]

The Challenge Of The Qur'aan

Literature and poetry have been instruments of human expression and creativity, in all cultures. The world also witnessed an age when literature and poetry occupied pride of position, similar to that now enjoyed by science and technology.

Muslims as well as non-Muslims agree that Al-Qur’aan is Arabic literature par excellence - that it is the best Arabic literature on the face of the earth. The Qur’aan, challenges mankind in the following verses:

“And if ye are in doubt As to what We have revealed From time to time to Our Servant, then produce a Soorah Like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, If your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot –And of a surety you cannot. hen fear the Fire Whose fuel is Men and Stones – Which is prepared for those Who reject Faith.”
[Al-Qur’aan 2:23-24]

(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24 indicates Soorah or Chapter No. 2 and Ayaat or Verses 23 and 24.)

The same notation is followed throughout the book. References and translation of the Qur’aan are from the translation of the Qur’aan by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, new revised edition, 1989, published by Amana Corporation, Maryland, USA.

The challenge of the Qur’aan, is to produce a single Soorah (chapter) like the Soorahs it contains. The same challenge is repeated in the Qur’aan several times. The challenge to produce a Soorah, which, in beauty, eloquence, depth and meaning is at least somewhat similar to a Qur’aanic Soorah remains unmet to this day. A modern rational man, however, would never accept a religious scripture, which says, in the best possible poetic language, that the world is flat. This is because we live in an age, where human reason, logic and science are given primacy. Not many would accept the Qur’aan’s extraordinarily beautiful language, as proof of its Divine origin. Any scripture claiming to be a divine revelation must also be acceptable on the strength of its own reason and logic.

According to the famous physicist and Nobel Prize winner, Albert Einstein, “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.” Let us therefore study the Qur’aan, and analyze whether The Qur’aan and Modern Science are compatible or incompatible?

The Qur’aan is not a book of science but a book of ‘signs’, i.e. ayats. There are more than six thousand ‘signs’ in the Qur’aan of which more than a thousand deal with science. We all know that many a times Science takes a ‘U-turn’. In this book I have considered only established scientific facts and not mere hypotheses and theories that are based on assumptions and are not backed by proof.

[Qasim Memon]

Assalamo Alaykum,

Jaza-ka-Allaho Khair daria dil.

Here is an article published in one of the Urdu nespapers of Canada about Qurani Ma'aloomat.

Wassalam.

[Mughal]

In 1947 some ancient hand written copies of christian scriptures were discovered in kamran caves that are said to be 2000 years old.

Like wise in 1970s some ancient hand written copies of the quran were discovered from a masjid in sana, in yemen. Research is on going at the moment on those copies and hopefully we will hear about it soon as to what it reveals regarding the origin of the quran.

As for the challenges of the quran, they are not challenges but claims. There is difference between the two. Moreover the claims are not mere claims but indefinite claims ie undefined and unlimited. Again there is difference between the two.

The problem here is that the quran cannot be defined or limited by hadith, for hadith does not have the status equal to the quran.

For example, the quran claims there lived a man called Noah, who lived for 950 years and built an ark etc etc etc. The question arises, what is the proof that that is the case? If there is no proof to prove this claim of the quran then how can it be accepted true?

Likewise the quran claims that it cannot be produced by anyone other than Allah. The question is, what is so special about the quran that proves that that is the case? Here one needs definition of the quranic claim from the quran as to what is the claim all about? If the quran does not define its claim or challenge, who else has the right to do so?

Nonmuslims do not agree about perfection or miraculous nature of the quran in any sense because if they did, they would no longer be nonmuslims any more, would they?

In fact nonmuslims have raised many challenging questions as regard the authenticity of the quran just as muslims have raised similar questions as regard their religious scriptures or beliefs eg about the holy bible in case of the christians.

Brother ahmed deedat was a very serious critic of the bible from amongst muslims in our time. I met him in the UK.

The quran itself is full of serious criticism about other belief systems or beliefs of other people ie nonmuslims. In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals. One would have to raise a question as to whether this is genuine criticism or abuse.

Is it same if one person tells the other person your beliefs are wrong because of this or that reason and saying you are worse of the animals? Such a statement would seem emotional and full of anger and frustration, would it not?

For muslims to understand the reality of the quran, they must study what nonmuslims say about the quran and why they say what they say. Only and only then may be there would come about a way whereby people may be able to reconcile their differences in some way and learn to live with each other in peace.

The bottom line is that we are all individuals and as individuals we each look at things from our own perspectives. What may seem right to me may well be wrong in other peoples's eyes and vice versa. So the need for concilliation is urgent in todays world order. Many of us are seriously suffering from indoctrination on this planet and cannot undo the damage caused by this evil practice worldwide.

These points I have raised to show that critical study of the quran and islam in general has begun in the west and things perhaps will no longer be taken for granted even in the muslim states any longer. Muslims in the west are now beginning to struggle in order to reconcile their religious beliefs with sense of getting along with the host communities. Perhaps soon those ideas will filter through back home due to interaction between ourselves and our relatives.

I hope all the same that things take the turn for the better.

Regards and all the best.

[Qasim Memon]

Originally posted by Mughal

The quran itself is full of serious criticism about other belief systems or beliefs of other people ie nonmuslims. In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals. One would have to raise a question as to whether this is genuine criticism or abuse.

[/b]

Assalamo Alaykum,

Reference your post, I have a genuine request to you and to other Forum members.

WHILE QUOTING ANYTHING FROM QURANE KAREEM, WHY DON’T YOU GIVE PROPER REFERENCDE TO PROVE WHAT YOU SAY IS CORRECT? ARE YOU ASHAMED TO DO SO? OR SOME OTHER REASON FORBIDS YOU TO DO SO?

Now before I may give you detailed respose to your post, kindly give me the proper reference of the following, as quoted by you in your post.

“In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals.”

Please give Surah name and Ayat number.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Wassalam.

[daria dil]

http://www.it-is-truth.org/it-is-truth/Index.shtml

[Mughal]

Dear brother Qasim Memon,

Wa alaikum salaam,

For on line quranic translations please visit

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/



1) As for the criticism of kufaar by the quran, please read sura 2 verses 6-20, 170-171 etc etc etc. There are dozens of verses in various suras on this subject.

2) As for kufaar being labelled worse than animals see sura 8 verses 55 as well as other verses in other suras in the quran.

3) The age of Noah is mentioned in sura 29 verse 14.

Of course stories of prophets are repeated in various suras. It will increase the length of posts in this thread if I pasted the whole translation of all the related verses here to prove my points so I hope this should be sufficien.

Please do share your views, perhaps, it will help me understand things better.

Regards and all the best.

[Qasim Memon]

Mohataram Moghul Saheb,

Assalamo Alaykum,

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAAH, MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH (S.A.W.).

You have termed the article, not as a challenge, but “claims” and “indefinite claims”. Well, in this democratic era, you are within your right to form your own opinion and term it as “dispute”, “not agreeable” or even “not acceptable”. It depends on how you view it.

Your statement: “In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals. One would have to raise a question as to whether this is genuine criticism or abuse.” What do you think about this? A criticism or abuse? Well, in fact, it is “truth”. Don’t you see that in daily life, one passes such remarks, or serious than this remarks to another when the argument or action reaches to the peak and the “mentality” of one goes similar to “beast”. He is not “beast” in actual fact, but the remarks is on his “mentality of beast”. It is comparision. Similarly, in this verse 8:55, do you think that “disbelivers” are actually “beast”? No. They are human being, but they are compared with “beast mentality”. It is so simple.

Do not go far. Within Muslims, followers of one sect brand, followers of another sect even worse than “beast” and this goes on and goes on.

Here is actual translation of 8:55:

“Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allâh are those who disbelieve[], - so they shall not believe.” (8:55) – Translation by Dr. Mohsin.

“Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.” (8:55) Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Refereence: http://pakdata.com/quran/index.html

Your statement: “The quran itself is full of serious criticism about other belief systems or beliefs of other people ie nonmuslims.” No brother, this is not “serious criticism”. It is “truth”, a “plain truth”. When a “truth” is said, the opponent always treats this ‘truth” as “criticism”. So are you. Take recent examples. A religious scholar or a politician, when reveals some “truth”, the opponents always term his “truth revealation” as “criticism”.
As for the “belief” is concerned, it is the ”believers”, who have to “believe” it. How can you ask “non-believers” to “believe” something which they do not “believe”?

In fact, if you “really” understand and study the Holy Quran (not from “non-believers”, as you believe), you will find that it is not “serious criticism”, but it is “truth” about other religion.

Every religion has “believers”, who “believe” that particular religion, and in view of “believers”, all others are “non-believers”, who do not “believe” in that particular religion. So how can you understand a religion or a particular thing from”non-believers’” point of view? As soon as you will bring them into picture, the whole question of “believing” becomes non-existent.

Your statement: “For example, the quran claims there lived a man called Noah, who lived for 950 years and built an ark etc etc etc. The question arises, what is the proof that that is the case? If there is no proof to prove this claim of the quran then how can it be accepted true?”, Let me give you answer and a practical example.

A non-believer i.e. non-Muslim asked the similar question. I have to give him the answer. But before answer, I put him a question, “You claim that you were born on nth day of January 19XX, and your mother’ name is ABC and your father’s name is XYZ. What is the proof that that is the case?” He will answer and give proof of his birth certificate. I asked, “OK, you have “written” record. But did you personally witnessed your birth? How do I believe that the birth certificate is of the person, you claim i.e. “you”, and you are actual offspring of the persons, whom you “believe” your “parents?” He replied, “I have written record i.e. “birth certificate”. The whole proof is only a “written” thing, not personally witnessed by him.

Therefore, the answer to your question is very simple. More than 3,000 years ago, there were no proper and adequate documentation and communiction system, so how a person’s birth and death record could have been kept at that time? Still to believe, we have to depend on something “written” (like modern “birth certificate”), by which we can “believe”. And this something “written” thing is nonthing but the Holy Quran revealed more than 1,400 years ago.

Still don’t believe? OK, do let me know what other kind of proof do you require to verify the existence of Noah and his age? I shall try my best to provide you. Certification from “non-believers”, a sort pf “ancient birth certificate” or some other evidence? What proof do you want???

Your statement: “Brother ahmed deedat was a very serious critic of the bible from amongst muslims in our time. I met him in the UK.” No, he was not “critic”. I had personally been associated with him for some time. He was a “truth revealer” of bible. Like Maurice Buccaile (whom I had met personally also), Sheikh Ahmed Deedat was not proving from the Holy Quran, but he was proving from the bible itself that “bible is not the word of God”. From the bible, he has proved the coming of our Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). While Maurice Buccaile, in his book “Bible, Science and Quran” has proved from the Holy Quran about various scientific discoveries and realities and he has also proved that these scientific discoveries and realities are not proved from the bible.

Your statement:” For muslims to understand the reality of the quran, they must study what nonmuslims say about the quran and why they say what they say.” Do you mean, if you want to study the Holy Quran, you will spend a portion of your life to study what “non-believers” i.e. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikh, Jain, Parsees, Bahaees, Ahmadis and followers of various other religions say about the Holy Quran? Who taught you this method of study? Did you study the Quran in this way? If yes, how much years did you spend with them? Did you finish the study or still it is going on? If you have not studied, when you are planning to study with them, as per your own advise? What a logic??? If some one wants to understand and study Science, what will he do? Will he study “Science” himself? Or will he go to a Scientist? Or as per your above “advise”, he will go to “Non-Scientist” or “opponents” of Science?

To understand and study Hindu religion, you have not to know the views of Christians. To understand and study sikh religion, you have not to know the views of Jews. Accordingly, to understand and study the Holy Quran, you need not to know the views of non-Muslims, but you have to study the Holy Quran itself. To study the Holy Quran, why do you depend on “non-believers” and their views?

What I will suggest for you seriously that you study the Holy Quran in your “own way”, as suggested by you i.e. to study what “non-Muslims” say about the Holy Quran and then write a nice book on this. May be this will prove a “best seller”. How is the idea? At least Muslims will also come to know the “reality” of Quran, as suggested by you.

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAAH, MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH (S.A.W.).

Wassalam.

[Mughal]

Mohtaram Janaab Bhai Qasim Memon Saahib,

Slaamat rahein aap,

I am grateful for your lovely response and hope to learn more of you as and when I can.

You wrote and I quote,

"Mohataram Moghul Saheb,

Assalamo Alaykum,

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAAH, MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH (S.A.W.).

You have termed the article, not as a challenge, but “claims” and “indefinite claims”. Well, in this democratic era, you are within your right to form your own opinion and term it as “dispute”, “not agreeable” or even “not acceptable”. It depends on how you view it.

Your statement: “In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals. One would have to raise a question as to whether this is genuine criticism or abuse.” What do you think about this? A criticism or abuse? Well, in fact, it is “truth”. Don’t you see that in daily life, one passes such remarks, or serious than this remarks to another when the argument or action reaches to the peak and the “mentality” of one goes similar to “beast”. He is not “beast” in actual fact, but the remarks is on his “mentality of beast”. It is comparision. Similarly, in this verse 8:55, do you think that “disbelivers” are actually “beast”? No. They are human being, but they are compared with “beast mentality”. It is so simple.

Do not go far. Within Muslims, followers of one sect brand, followers of another sect even worse than “beast” and this goes on and goes on.

Here is actual translation of 8:55:

“Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allâh are those who disbelieve[], - so they shall not believe.” (8:55) – Translation by Dr. Mohsin.

“Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.” (8:55) Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Refereence: http://pakdata.com/quran/index.html

Your statement: “The quran itself is full of serious criticism about other belief systems or beliefs of other people ie nonmuslims.” No brother, this is not “serious criticism”. It is “truth”, a “plain truth”. When a “truth” is said, the opponent always treats this ‘truth” as “criticism”. So are you. Take recent examples. A religious scholar or a politician, when reveals some “truth”, the opponents always term his “truth revealation” as “criticism”.
As for the “belief” is concerned, it is the ”believers”, who have to “believe” it. How can you ask “non-believers” to “believe” something which they do not “believe”?

In fact, if you “really” understand and study the Holy Quran (not from “non-believers”, as you believe), you will find that it is not “serious criticism”, but it is “truth” about other religion.

Every religion has “believers”, who “believe” that particular religion, and in view of “believers”, all others are “non-believers”, who do not “believe” in that particular religion. So how can you understand a religion or a particular thing from”non-believers’” point of view? As soon as you will bring them into picture, the whole question of “believing” becomes non-existent.

Your statement: “For example, the quran claims there lived a man called Noah, who lived for 950 years and built an ark etc etc etc. The question arises, what is the proof that that is the case? If there is no proof to prove this claim of the quran then how can it be accepted true?”, Let me give you answer and a practical example.

A non-believer i.e. non-Muslim asked the similar question. I have to give him the answer. But before answer, I put him a question, “You claim that you were born on nth day of January 19XX, and your mother’ name is ABC and your father’s name is XYZ. What is the proof that that is the case?” He will answer and give proof of his birth certificate. I asked, “OK, you have “written” record. But did you personally witnessed your birth? How do I believe that the birth certificate is of the person, you claim i.e. “you”, and you are actual offspring of the persons, whom you “believe” your “parents?” He replied, “I have written record i.e. “birth certificate”. The whole proof is only a “written” thing, not personally witnessed by him.

Therefore, the answer to your question is very simple. More than 3,000 years ago, there were no proper and adequate documentation and communiction system, so how a person’s birth and death record could have been kept at that time? Still to believe, we have to depend on something “written” (like modern “birth certificate”), by which we can “believe”. And this something “written” thing is nonthing but the Holy Quran revealed more than 1,400 years ago.

Still don’t believe? OK, do let me know what other kind of proof do you require to verify the existence of Noah and his age? I shall try my best to provide you. Certification from “non-believers”, a sort pf “ancient birth certificate” or some other evidence? What proof do you want???

Your statement: “Brother ahmed deedat was a very serious critic of the bible from amongst muslims in our time. I met him in the UK.” No, he was not “critic”. I had personally been associated with him for some time. He was a “truth revealer” of bible. Like Maurice Buccaile (whom I had met personally also), Sheikh Ahmed Deedat was not proving from the Holy Quran, but he was proving from the bible itself that “bible is not the word of God”. From the bible, he has proved the coming of our Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). While Maurice Buccaile, in his book “Bible, Science and Quran” has proved from the Holy Quran about various scientific discoveries and realities and he has also proved that these scientific discoveries and realities are not proved from the bible.

Your statement:” For muslims to understand the reality of the quran, they must study what nonmuslims say about the quran and why they say what they say.” Do you mean, if you want to study the Holy Quran, you will spend a portion of your life to study what “non-believers” i.e. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikh, Jain, Parsees, Bahaees, Ahmadis and followers of various other religions say about the Holy Quran? Who taught you this method of study? Did you study the Quran in this way? If yes, how much years did you spend with them? Did you finish the study or still it is going on? If you have not studied, when you are planning to study with them, as per your own advise? What a logic??? If some one wants to understand and study Science, what will he do? Will he study “Science” himself? Or will he go to a Scientist? Or as per your above “advise”, he will go to “Non-Scientist” or “opponents” of Science?

To understand and study Hindu religion, you have not to know the views of Christians. To understand and study sikh religion, you have not to know the views of Jews. Accordingly, to understand and study the Holy Quran, you need not to know the views of non-Muslims, but you have to study the Holy Quran itself. To study the Holy Quran, why do you depend on “non-believers” and their views?

What I will suggest for you seriously that you study the Holy Quran in your “own way”, as suggested by you i.e. to study what “non-Muslims” say about the Holy Quran and then write a nice book on this. May be this will prove a “best seller”. How is the idea? At least Muslims will also come to know the “reality” of Quran, as suggested by you.

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAAH, MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH (S.A.W.).

Wassalam.


__________________
Qasim Memon"

Thanks again and all the best.

[Mughal]

Mohtaram Janaab Bhai Qasim Memon Saahib,

Assalaamu alaikum,

I am grateful for your kind response and am now continuing discussion for mutual benefit. I am sorry the post is going to be a very long one.

1) Dear respected brother you wrote and I quote,

“You have termed the article, not as a challenge, but “claims” and “indefinite claims”. Well, in this democratic era, you are within your right to form your own opinion and term it as “dispute”, “not agreeable” or even “not acceptable”. It depends on how you view it.”

1) My response, of course with respect,

Thank you very much for accepting the fact that like your good self I too have the right to express my views even if they are contrary to your good self.


2) You wrote,

"Your statement: “In fact one find verses in it that tell us, people who are disbelievers have no sense and that they are worse than animals. One would have to raise a question as to whether this is genuine criticism or abuse.” What do you think about this? A criticism or abuse?

Well, in fact, it is “truth”. Don’t you see that in daily life, one passes such remarks, or serious than this remarks to another when the argument or action reaches to the peak and the “mentality” of one goes similar to “beast”. He is not “beast” in actual fact, but the remarks is on his “mentality of beast”. It is comparision. Similarly, in this verse 8:55, do you think that “disbelivers” are actually “beast”? No. They are human being, but they are compared with “beast mentality”. It is so simple.

Do not go far. Within Muslims, followers of one sect brand, followers of another sect even worse than “beast” and this goes on and goes on.

Here is actual translation of 8:55:

“Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allâh are those who disbelieve[], - so they shall not believe.” (8:55) – Translation by Dr. Mohsin.

“Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.” (8:55) Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Refereence: http://pakdata.com/quran/index.html"


2) My response,

The quran or any of its claims has to be provable and be proven to be accepted as truth before one could claim that it is the truth. Taking something for granted as true would be labelled blind faith, would it not?

Now blind faith can be a very dangerous thing if it is used for political and legal purposes, for people will assume faith in unreal things as real and assume impractical ways as practical and push for establishing them which could on one hand endanger world peace and on the other could create oppressive society that lacks any virtue whatsoever. The result, any society based on such beliefs and practices will be backward and destructive by way of strangling itself out of existence. So putting all the eggs in the wrong basket will not be a good thing. It is for this reason whatever people believe and practice ought to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt if it has to affect their lives so seriously, so that we all could see what is really right and what is really wrong in any given situation.

As to the explanation that Allah may respond to human ignorance/arrogance in kind, I beg to differ. One, because god would be graceful and perfect in expressing himself and would not be tempted the way we human beings are. Two, the quran itself advises the wise how to respond to the ignorant arrogant see 25/63 as well as 16/125, 31/19 etc. Would it not be strange that he who is supposed to be the wisest of all falls short of the standard he himself sets up?


3) You stated,

“Your statement: “The quran itself is full of serious criticism about other belief systems or beliefs of other people ie nonmuslims.”

No brother, this is not “serious criticism”. It is “truth”, a “plain truth”. When a “truth” is said, the opponent always treats this ‘truth” as “criticism”. So are you. Take recent examples. A religious scholar or a politician, when reveals some “truth”, the opponents always term his “truth revealation” as “criticism”.
As for the “belief” is concerned, it is the ”believers”, who have to “believe” it. How can you ask “non-believers” to “believe” something which they do not “believe”?

3) My response,

Dear brother, the quran was allegedly sent to encourage all people to believe in it because they did not believe in it. As a result some believed, the others did not.

As for the criticism of people by Allah, it ought not to be there, for people are told the right and the wrong way is made clear and it is upto the individuals themselves to accept it or reject it.

For example, if you want me to accept or reject a gift from yourself, you do not have to insult my person if I reject it. Likewise, if the quran is a gift from god to human beings to follow it or not then that is all there is to it. All god had to do was to tell us good things and their reasons and benefits, bad things and their reasons and harmful effects and let us make up our own minds. The purpose of making the consequences clear is to allow people to make up their own minds for their own benefit or loss. Throwing insults at those who reject the gift because they have been allowed the choice has no place in this matter.


THE RESPONSE CONTINUES

[Mughal]

THE NEXT PART OF THE RESPONSE



4) You wrote,

“In fact, if you “really” understand and study the Holy Quran (not from “non-believers”, as you believe), you will find that it is not “serious criticism”, but it is “truth” about other religion.

Every religion has “believers”, who “believe” that particular religion, and in view of “believers”, all others are “non-believers”, who do not “believe” in that particular religion. So how can you understand a religion or a particular thing from”non-believers’” point of view? As soon as you will bring them into picture, the whole question of “believing” becomes non-existent.”

4) My response,

Dear brother, this is the reason that I say, religion is a matter of faith for the faithful and not a matter of proof and proving. This being the case, throwing challenges at people of other faiths or nonfaith would make no sense whatsoever. The reason is simple because if one cannot prove oneself right then that very person will be wrong in claiming or challenging others that they are in the wrong by rejecting challenger’s religion.

As for studying the quran oneself, I agree that each individual should make his/her own mind about any religious scripture of any religion. However, to begin with these individuals should not be indoctrinated and allowed to educate themselves in all disciplines necessary till they develop their critical faculty. It is at that stage that scriptures and religions should be put in front of them to judge for their truth. You cannot be right if you allow indoctrination and then after severe brainwashing process ask such individuals to now make a decision on the truth of any holy scripture. That would be like hypnotising the jury that the accused is guilty and then telling them to decide whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty. Obviously they will find the defendant guilty, for that is how they have been brainwashed. The problem is once a people have been psychologically conditioned, they need to be unwound and reprogrammed as normal before they could become normal thinking human beings.


5) You wrote,

“Your statement: “For example, the quran claims there lived a man called Noah, who lived for 950 years and built an ark etc etc etc. The question arises, what is the proof that that is the case? If there is no proof to prove this claim of the quran then how can it be accepted true?”, Let me give you answer and a practical example.

A non-believer i.e. non-Muslim asked the similar question. I have to give him the answer. But before answer, I put him a question, “You claim that you were born on nth day of January 19XX, and your mother’ name is ABC and your father’s name is XYZ. What is the proof that that is the case?” He will answer and give proof of his birth certificate. I asked, “OK, you have “written” record. But did you personally witnessed your birth? How do I believe that the birth certificate is of the person, you claim i.e. “you”, and you are actual offspring of the persons, whom you “believe” your “parents?” He replied, “I have written record i.e. “birth certificate”. The whole proof is only a “written” thing, not personally witnessed by him.

Therefore, the answer to your question is very simple. More than 3,000 years ago, there were no proper and adequate documentation and communiction system, so how a person’s birth and death record could have been kept at that time? Still to believe, we have to depend on something “written” (like modern “birth certificate”), by which we can “believe”. And this something “written” thing is nonthing but the Holy Quran revealed more than 1,400 years ago.

5) My response,

I first heard this argument a very long time ago from Mufti ahmad yaar khan naeemi. A brailvy scholar of islam. He has written it in one of his publications, I do not remember the name may be it was called JAA AL HAQ WA ZAQAL BAATIL or something along these lines.

Never mind, the problem with this logic is that it is not logical at all. It seems to bring god down to human level. My point is that god and man ought to be at two different levels. Just because human beings have limitations does not mean that god also suffers from the very same troubles. If it was god who wanted to create this world then he ought to plan it properly leaving nothing to chance. He ought to know that he will create people, put them on trial or test them by sending prophets and scriptures and will need to prove his claims. No one raises court action and throws away the evidences which one may need to prove one’s case. So if the quran contains claims for which their ought to be evidences made available but they are not then that would raise many questions about the truth of such a message. Particularly, when the very same scriptures warns us about impostors and fraudsters. So distinction between the two is absolutely vital.


As for our own constitutions, they are all measures for practicalities of life and nothing more ie to organise human societies politically for economics etc purposes to ensure as far as possible for human beings to minimise our problems of living or coping with our existence by means of fulfilling our needs to make life bearable. It is for this reason we have come up with ideas of rules and regulations to regulate our societies as best as we can. We define proofs and proving methods for our own purposes as we see fit. Our world is a dynamic place not static, so as time goes by we develop new technologies and discover new ways and means whereby we redefine our laws and practices.

When there was no other way to find out about who killed who in case of a murder, we simply depended on eye witnesses, for that was all we could do as human beings. Now we have discovered genetic fingerprinting method, so we use that to put criminal at the scene of the crime. Not that it is perfect but that is the best we can do as human beings. We launch claims and we set the standard of proof and the way of proving the cases. We have accepted all this because this is the best practical solutions so far the wisdom of humanity has to offer. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If some idea works for a purpose and we have no better idea then as far as we are concerned that is the solution of our related problems.

As for god, he too ought to set up what suits him/her/it but we will have to test it for its practicality to see if it really is workable or not and whether that is perfect or not, for divine word or deed ought to be perfect in every possible sense or it will reflect bad on god. For example, if one claims to be all perfect yet does something that is short of perfection in some way then what would we think about such a being? Perfect or imperfect? Or would it not raise the question that since an action attributed to the perfect one is not perfect so it cannot be his action ie word or deed?


6) Dear brother, you wrote,

“Still don’t believe? OK, do let me know what other kind of proof do you require to verify the existence of Noah and his age? I shall try my best to provide you. Certification from “non-believers”, a sort pf “ancient birth certificate” or some other evidence? What proof do you want???”

6) My response,

Basically, a proof is a reliable testimony of a witness. The question is what is reliable testimony? A testimony is said to be reliable when it contains all vital relevant information free of any contradictions within and without ie in it factually and logically sound.

In other words such a statement has to be logical ie in accordance with rules of logic or any illogicality in it would render it unreliable. It has to be free of any flaws, for any vital information missing from it will render it unreliable. It has to be free of any contradiction within ie it should not contradict itself eg affirm as well as negate the very same fact. It must be free of contradicting the relevant obvious facts.

Any such witness would prove to be a reliable testimony that stands such testing and scrutiny. However, I do not think that we have any such proof of Noah’s existence or of anyone else’s for that matter who has passed away long, long ago but if you have something towards it, it would be interesting to know.


THE RESPONSE CONTINUES

[Mughal]

RESPONSE CONTINUES


7) You wrote,

“Your statement: “Brother ahmed deedat was a very serious critic of the bible from amongst muslims in our time. I met him in the UK.” No, he was not “critic”. I had personally been associated with him for some time. He was a “truth revealer” of bible. Like Maurice Buccaile (whom I had met personally also), Sheikh Ahmed Deedat was not proving from the Holy Quran, but he was proving from the bible itself that “bible is not the word of God”. From the bible, he has proved the coming of our Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). While Maurice Buccaile, in his book “Bible, Science and Quran” has proved from the Holy Quran about various scientific discoveries and realities and he has also proved that these scientific discoveries and realities are not proved from the bible.”

7) My response,

It is nice to know that you were associate of brother ahmad deedat. He was a very good debater on behalf of islam. He had the presence of mind and knew the holy scriptures very well. I met him in seventies. He was invited here in the uk by uk Islamic mission in their islamic propagation centre in Birmingham. I think he was at the time lecturing about number nineteen miracle of the quran.

I have read most of his booklets. Dr Gary miller (AKA brother UMAR) also accompanied him who is also from your side of the world. Recently, I came across brother shabir ali, who is also from Canada. I like thinking people regardless of their beliefs because they help us think and improve our rationality. I read dr buccaile’s books as well. One is the one you have already mentioned but I also read his other book called what is the origin of man? Or something along these lines. These books were published in late seventies I think. I never had the opportunity to meet the gentleman myself.

I agree with you that his arguments were very convincing as regard the bible, but they were flawed when it came to the quran. In my opinion, he took the verses of the quran out of their contexts. I rather not talk about the context and perspective of the quran just now because the post is already getting out of hands. May be we will do that some other time.


8) You wrote,

“Your statement:” For muslims to understand the reality of the quran, they must study what nonmuslims say about the quran and why they say what they say.” Do you mean, if you want to study the Holy Quran, you will spend a portion of your life to study what “non-believers” i.e. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikh, Jain, Parsees, Bahaees, Ahmadis and followers of various other religions say about the Holy Quran? Who taught you this method of study? Did you study the Quran in this way? If yes, how much years did you spend with them? Did you finish the study or still it is going on? If you have not studied, when you are planning to study with them, as per your own advise? What a logic??? If some one wants to understand and study Science, what will he do? Will he study “Science” himself? Or will he go to a Scientist? Or as per your above “advise”, he will go to “Non-Scientist” or “opponents” of Science?

To understand and study Hindu religion, you have not to know the views of Christians. To understand and study sikh religion, you have not to know the views of Jews. Accordingly, to understand and study the Holy Quran, you need not to know the views of non-Muslims, but you have to study the Holy Quran itself. To study the Holy Quran, why do you depend on “non-believers” and their views?

What I will suggest for you seriously that you study the Holy Quran in your “own way”, as suggested by you i.e. to study what “non-Muslims” say about the Holy Quran and then write a nice book on this. May be this will prove a “best seller”. How is the idea? At least Muslims will also come to know the “reality” of Quran, as suggested by you.


LA ILAAHA ILLALLAAH, MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH (S.A.W.).

Wassalam.


__________________
Qasim Memon"

8) My response,

Dear respected brother, you are stepping aside from the very point you are making yourself if you could study here what you are saying. Whether one is muslim or nonmuslims a person is a person and once a person studies something, the person expresses his/her views about it. Just as you have views about the scriptures of other religions if you have studied them. Just because you are a muslim does not mean that your opinion is automatically invalid in respect of the holy bible, for validity of any arguments stands on itself and the facts they use for premises and conclusions. Likewise a nonmuslim’s opinion is valid concerning the holy quran if premise of his argument is solid and his conclusion is correctly based on it.

If only muslims could be the judges of the quran then only Christians would be the juges of the bible. Imagine the consequences of such a logic ie one would have no right to be the judge of other people’s scriptures. This being the case, one should not be allowed to preach one’s religion to others because the whole exercise would become meaningless. Only if we accept the premise that all people cam understand all scriptures that we will have any common ground to begin with.

The very first mistake people make when judging a scripture is that they use the scripture itself as the criterion for truth and falsehood or right and wrong. This creates a situation that the scripture cannot be wrong, it is the people who cannot understand it ie particularly those who do not believe in the scriptural truth. If we think about this situation, we will see it is a non-starter. Why not? Because this situation creates a scenario that even if a scripture is saying something wrong, it cannot be proven wrong because the criterion is scripture itself instead of commonsense. This is why religious people keep on believing in wrong things because they believe the scripture is right and everything else is wrong if it is against the scripture.

By using this sort of absurd logic, no wonder one cannot prove anyone wrong. As I said before, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If a criterion does not solve a problem it is supposed to solve then obviously something is wrong with it, for it does not work. The question is, what is the problem that we are trying to solve? Finding the truth. The truth is only one but how to find it out? In other words, what is the way for finding the truth beyond any reasonable doubt? If there is no such way, there is no such truth but if there is then we all wish to know it, do we not? I certainly do if I could. The purpose of such discussion is to help each other do that.


Sorry for the lengthy response I hope you would not mind and thanks again for your kindness and encouragement.

Regards and all the best.

[Qasim Memon]

Mohataram Mughal Saheb,

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH (S.A.W.).

Peace,

Thanks for your "detailed" comments.

After reading your arguments in these 3 posts and previous post, now I came to know that with whom I am discussing or arguing!

Actually, if I will give very detailed reply to all the points in your 3 separate posts, this may turn like a confrontation more or less similar to those witnessed by me some years ago, when Sheikh Ahmed Deedat used to have debates and dialogues with world renowned “Pastors” and “Minsrers” like Dr. Floyd Clarke, Jimmy Sweghart etc.

Considering that this Forum is not for that purpose, I want to give brief response in general, and not point by point. Also I have to consider a very important fact about the relationship of the “Creator” with His “creation”.

Let me start with this relationship. To consider the study of the Holy Quran, Creator and Revealer of which is Almighty Allah, as I/we all (“Muslims”) believe, the most important point is to understand our relationship with Him. It is not a relaltionship similar to “an employer and employee” or “seller and buyer” or“carrier and traveler” or “landlord and tenant” relationship. Because in the above four examples of relationship, both parties have certain “rights” and some “powers”on one antoher. Unlike these relationship, the relationship between the Creator i.e. Almighty Allah and His creation i.e. His servant, only the Creator i.e. the First Party is dominating, because He created the creation. He is Master and his creation is His servant. He has absolute rights and power on His creation. So His creation has not to challenge Him. This applies to ALL the religion. No religion of the world is giving “challenging rights” to their followers to challenge their Creator. It is only in Indian movies that the hero, heroine or some other person challenges their “Bhagwan”.

Considering the above fact, how a creation of Almighty Allah is going to challenge His Revelaltion? Then somebody will question that there are millions who are challenging. Yes, there are. But the basic fact is that they are not treating themselves “creation” of Almighty Allah, since they follow the religion other than Islam. Accordingly, the servants of Almighty Allah have surrendered and submitted to Him. No question of challenging Him or His Revealation i.e. the Holy Quran. (No question of challenging by a Christian to his Lord or his scripture i.e. the Bible. No question of challenging by a Hindu to his Lord or his scripture i.e. Ramayan, Mahabharat etc.)

Based on above “logic”, can I know that how many “Pastors” and “Ministers” study the Bible by challenging their Lord? Or how many study the Bible from the “critics” of Bible? Similarly how many “Mahants” and “Pujaris” study Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Wed etc. by challenging their Lord ? Or study their scripture from critics of these scripture? Similarly, how many “Sikh Gurus” study Granth Saheb by challenging their Lord? Or study their scripture from critics of their scripture? The answer would be nil. So how do you expect us Muslims to study the Holy Quran by challenging our Lord i.e. Almighty Allah? How do you expect us Muslims to study our scripture from critics?

Since we Muslims have accepted the relationship with our Lord as a relationship of “Master” and “servants”, we have not to challenge our “Master” on the “proofs” and “authenticity” of His Revealation i.e. the Holy Quran and the “proofs” of its contents like Noah’ ark and his age.

Do you think that has any Pastor or Minister challenged for the proof and authenticity of the Bible and its contents? Has any Mahant or Pujari challenged for the proof and authenticity of Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Wed etc.and its contents? Has any Sikh Guru challenged the proof and authenticity of Granth Saheb and its contents? This is the basic principle of all the religion that the “believers” of all the religions have to “believe” and in fact, they do “believe” their own religion itself and their scripture, IRRESPECTIVE OF CRITICISM FROM FOLLOWERS OF OTHER RELIGIONS. The same applies to us.

Coming to “criticism” of religion Islam from non-Muslims, I would like to give just 2 examples, where two world famous scholars have said about Islam religion and have paid great tribute, which you must have read. These scholars are none but George Bernard Shaw and La Martin. Also let me give you example of a Christian scholar and writer Michael Hart, who has written a book, which you must have read, entitled “Greatest 100”, in which he has put our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) as NUMBER ONE. Jesus Christ (P.B.U.H.), whom we Muslims also believe a Messanger, comes after that.

Having said above, the response to all your points is summarized in the above.

Best of luck to you.

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH (S.A.W.).

Peace.

[Mughal]

Mohtaram janaab bhai qasim memon saahib,

Thank you very much for your very nice response as follows.

"Mohataram Mughal Saheb,

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH (S.A.W.).

Peace,

Thanks for your "detailed" comments.

After reading your arguments in these 3 posts and previous post, now I came to know that with whom I am discussing or arguing!

Actually, if I will give very detailed reply to all the points in your 3 separate posts, this may turn like a confrontation more or less similar to those witnessed by me some years ago, when Sheikh Ahmed Deedat used to have debates and dialogues with world renowned “Pastors” and “Minsrers” like Dr. Floyd Clarke, Jimmy Sweghart etc.

Considering that this Forum is not for that purpose, I want to give brief response in general, and not point by point. Also I have to consider a very important fact about the relationship of the “Creator” with His “creation”.

Let me start with this relationship. To consider the study of the Holy Quran, Creator and Revealer of which is Almighty Allah, as I/we all (“Muslims”) believe, the most important point is to understand our relationship with Him. It is not a relaltionship similar to “an employer and employee” or “seller and buyer” or“carrier and traveler” or “landlord and tenant” relationship. Because in the above four examples of relationship, both parties have certain “rights” and some “powers”on one antoher. Unlike these relationship, the relationship between the Creator i.e. Almighty Allah and His creation i.e. His servant, only the Creator i.e. the First Party is dominating, because He created the creation. He is Master and his creation is His servant. He has absolute rights and power on His creation. So His creation has not to challenge Him. This applies to ALL the religion. No religion of the world is giving “challenging rights” to their followers to challenge their Creator. It is only in Indian movies that the hero, heroine or some other person challenges their “Bhagwan”.

Considering the above fact, how a creation of Almighty Allah is going to challenge His Revelaltion? Then somebody will question that there are millions who are challenging. Yes, there are. But the basic fact is that they are not treating themselves “creation” of Almighty Allah, since they follow the religion other than Islam. Accordingly, the servants of Almighty Allah have surrendered and submitted to Him. No question of challenging Him or His Revealation i.e. the Holy Quran. (No question of challenging by a Christian to his Lord or his scripture i.e. the Bible. No question of challenging by a Hindu to his Lord or his scripture i.e. Ramayan, Mahabharat etc.)

Based on above “logic”, can I know that how many “Pastors” and “Ministers” study the Bible by challenging their Lord? Or how many study the Bible from the “critics” of Bible? Similarly how many “Mahants” and “Pujaris” study Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Wed etc. by challenging their Lord ? Or study their scripture from critics of these scripture? Similarly, how many “Sikh Gurus” study Granth Saheb by challenging their Lord? Or study their scripture from critics of their scripture? The answer would be nil. So how do you expect us Muslims to study the Holy Quran by challenging our Lord i.e. Almighty Allah? How do you expect us Muslims to study our scripture from critics?

Since we Muslims have accepted the relationship with our Lord as a relationship of “Master” and “servants”, we have not to challenge our “Master” on the “proofs” and “authenticity” of His Revealation i.e. the Holy Quran and the “proofs” of its contents like Noah’ ark and his age.

Do you think that has any Pastor or Minister challenged for the proof and authenticity of the Bible and its contents? Has any Mahant or Pujari challenged for the proof and authenticity of Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Wed etc.and its contents? Has any Sikh Guru challenged the proof and authenticity of Granth Saheb and its contents? This is the basic principle of all the religion that the “believers” of all the religions have to “believe” and in fact, they do “believe” their own religion itself and their scripture, IRRESPECTIVE OF CRITICISM FROM FOLLOWERS OF OTHER RELIGIONS. The same applies to us.

Coming to “criticism” of religion Islam from non-Muslims, I would like to give just 2 examples, where two world famous scholars have said about Islam religion and have paid great tribute, which you must have read. These scholars are none but George Bernard Shaw and La Martin. Also let me give you example of a Christian scholar and writer Michael Hart, who has written a book, which you must have read, entitled “Greatest 100”, in which he has put our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) as NUMBER ONE. Jesus Christ (P.B.U.H.), whom we Muslims also believe a Messanger, comes after that.

Having said above, the response to all your points is summarized in the above.

Best of luck to you.

LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH (S.A.W.).

Peace.


__________________
Qasim Memon"



My response,

I am very grateful for your valuable views and the way you put them across. Moreover thank you for your summarization and I wish you all the best.

[winnie]

Assalamualekum!! honourable qasim n mughal sahab!!

my knolwedege n expreince is very liitle in front of urs

My comments r of no consequence to the deatailed discussion that passed between both of u!

but as i read ur detailed line of arguments , questions stormed in my mind i can't help asking them!.. i hope to receive a reply which will be an honour for me!

questions:
1: if this all is the case that both of u discussed how the no of muslims converts is increasing with the passage of time??

2:To sir mughal, sir u r mashAllah muslim did u ever questioned ur self why u beleive in Allah n his book Quran when u haven't seen him??? if putting aside the fact that u were born muslim a curious human mind would question it....what wud be ur answer????

3:there has always been a lot of debate abt what r we going to answer if non-muslims question r scriptures say for e.g they just ask a simple question as have u seen God???
don't chiristians n jews n hindus etc beleive in the existense of God,regradless of the different methods of worship or name they use, the end point is an Unseen Power!
one of u said that one has no right to judge someone else's scripture..is this only applicable to muslims.. n not non-muslims???

the last century has seen the Scripture of Quran being proven by science...n the time to come will proove more of it.... but do we have to indulge r selves in lamenting the fact that non-muslims have challneged the scriptures of Quran n there is nothing that we can do...we can not provide witnesses to the things mentiones in Quran
but doen't time is the greatest witness...this being mentioned in Quran itself????


writing a book is not at all a bad idea! muslims r already short of good writers why don't both of u try ur hand on writing.. that will be a great contribution to the cause of Islam!

Hope to hear the answers soon!

Allah hafiz