[ASQR]

Read and do not be intimidated by the name of the site, it is an in site into the thinking of some westerners. Become part of the discussions and put truth in the front.


June 07, 2003
Echoes of the Jewish War

Regulars at Whiskey Bar know I'm fascinated by history, ancient history in particular. I'm particularly intrigued by the many parallels between our emerging American Empire and the Roman original, which seem to grow stronger by the day.

Rome's expansion into the Middle East also brought it face to face with a deeply religious, culturally conservative people -- an ancient society wedded to a fierce and intolerant brand of monotheism. It was a culture riven by contradiction, angered by thwarted national ambitions, and struggling to reconcile an exalted sense of religious superiority with extreme military and political inferiority.

I'm talking, of course, about the Jews.

Now Islam has replaced Judaism as the imperial problem child of the Middle East -- demonstrating, I guess, that God is not without a certain sense of the ironic.

This idea actually struck me during our last war, in Afghanistan, when I realized that the Taliban and Al Qaeda were acting out the historical role of the Zealots -- the Jewish terrorists who launched a hopeless revolt in 66 AD, and were crushed by the Roman military machine.

That led me to write the following essay . . .

The New Zealots

When Rome imposed its earlier version of imperial hegemony on the ancient world, most of the vanquished peoples of the Mediterranean basin eventually found a way to cope with the "new order" – to make the empire work for them, so to speak.

Like the Greeks, they may have despised the Romans as crude barbarians. Or, like the Egyptians, they may have viewed them as simply the latest gang of foreign invaders to be endured and, if possible, exploited. But however they felt about the Romans, the great majority of imperial subjects found something to like about the Pax Romanum.

Indeed, through a long process of cultural osmosis, the conquered gradually became the conquerers, reworking the empire into a cosmopolitan colossus that owed relatively little to the city on the Tiber except its name – the first truly "globalized" civilization. This process was smoothed by Rome’s somewhat promiscuous attitude about culture and religion, which encouraged an easy exchange of deities and beliefs.

Amid all this pragmatic polytheism, however, one fanatical group of stiff-necked monotheists simply refused to get with the program: the Jewish Zealots. Faced with a Jewish ruling elite compromised by collaboration with Rome and its Herodian puppet dynasty, horrified by classical Greece’s deep inroads into Jewish culture, the Zealots rebelled -- first as terrorists, then as guerrillas, and finally as an insurrectionary army. In the spring and summer of 66 AD, they attacked and slaughtered the Hellenized inhabitants of Caesarea, Jerusalem and the other cities of Palestine in an orgy of religious and ethnic cleansing.

The conservative British writer Paul Johnson – a spectacular asshole but also a great writer – picks up the story:

The Great Revolt was a civil and racial war between Greeks and Jews. But it was also a civil war among Jews, because – as in the time of the Maccabees – the Jewish upper class, largely Hellenized, was identified with the sins of the Greeks.

Then the militarily inevitable happened: the Zealots were smashed to a pulp by the Roman war machine. Jerusalem was sacked, the temple destroyed, and the last pitiful handful of the rebels fled to the remote mountain stronghold of Masada, where they eventually chose suicide over surrender.

The Islamic War

Needless to say, this all has an eerie ring of familiarity to it – as if history were experiencing a particularly vivid case of déjà vu. Like first century Judaism, modern fundamentalist Islam faces an existential crisis, in the form of an aggressive globalized culture it can neither defeat nor assimilate.

Instead of ancient Judaism’s Hellenized elites, modern Islam has its westernized oil sheiks, more at home in London or New York than in Doha or Riyadh. In place of the corrupt and brutal King Herod, there is the equally corrupt if somewhat less brutal House of Saud. For Roman centurians we have the U.S. Marines. And, of course, Al Qaeda and the Taliban have replaced the Zealots as the doomed fanatics of a hopeless war.

The American conquest of Afghanistan also contains certain echoes of the Roman experience in Palestine. The Romans had no real interest in ruling the Jews, and would have vastly preferred working through puppet regimes. Indeed, Rome had no strategic interest in the Jews at all – save for its need to hold Palestine in order to safeguard the much more important provinces of Syria and Egypt, the last being particularly critical because of the steady stream of grain it supplied to feed the hungry Roman mob.

But, just as Jewish terror finally triggered an overwhelming Roman response, Al Qaeda’s fanaticism has finally forced America into a massive military intervention in the region – not an expedition, but a full-scale invasion, with occupation to follow.

Three Roman legions flattened Jerusalem; the U.S. Air Force appears to be doing the same to Kahandar. The Zealots retreated to Masada; Osama Bin Ladin and his hard core followers appear to be holed up somewhere in the Hindu Kush, awaiting the same martyrs’ death.

Next Year, in Jerusalem

The crushing of the Zealots did not mean the end of Jewish resistance to Roman rule. Forlorn and futile rebellions continued to break out well into the second century. Ultimately, the Romans, those world-class engineers, thought it best to completely demolish the old Jerusalem and erect a new, Roman, city on its ruins. (The modern equivalent, I suppose, would be to send Bechtel in to bulldoze Kahandar and put up a shopping mall.)

In mythic terms, though, the destruction of the Second Temple was a watershed event in Jewish history – the most decisive since Moses came down from Mt. Sinai. It settled for almost two thousand years a question with enormous political and theological implications: Was Judaism a religion or a state ideology?

Without the temple – the focus of the official cult of the Kingdom of Judah – the link between these two manifestations of Jewish identity was shattered. For eighteen centuries, Judaism would develop as a religion, based around synagogues and rabbis, yeshivas and the ethical teachings of Tora and Talmud. The Jewish nation would be metaphysical, not political. Jewish aspirations to state power would be shelved for generations, until Zionism emerged as one of the 19th century’s many brands of ethnic nationalism.

A New Islam?

This is where the similarities really become interesting. For, like the Judaism of the Zealots, the Islam of Al Qaeda and the Taliban asserts duel claims to both theological and temporal power.

Of course, historic parallels are never exact. Kahandar isn’t Jerusalem. Unlike the Second Temple, the Kaaba still stands in Mecca. The American Empire is not about to scatter a billion Muslims to the four winds, to become a tiny Diaspora in a sea of infidels. Islam is simply too big for such a solution.

This means the destruction of Al Qaeda and the Taliban probably will not be cataclysmic enough to force the Islam to accept its diminution from world power to just a religion. Nor is it exactly clear what might bring about such acceptance. There seems to be something in the theological warp and woof of Islam that makes it tremendously difficult to renounce the dream of the Caliphate.

But a new Caliphate is beyond Islam’s worldly powers, just as restoring the kingdom of the Maccabees proved beyond the reach of the Zealots. This creates the threat of an endless, if not genocidal, conflict with the West. Sooner or later, Islam will have to renounce its claim to worldly power.

This religious and cultural transformation is the real war America needs to win. Let’s just hope the taming of Islam can be achieved by different methods, and at a lower cost, than Rome’s triumph over Judaism.
Posted by billmon at June 7, 2003 09:34 PM
Comments

An interesting an analogy. Especially if you consider that a form of reformed Judaism, Christianity, eventually took over the Roman Empire.

Makes you wonder if some day the US will convert to a reformed Islam.
Posted by: Chris Andersen at June 7, 2003 09:49 PM

Sooner or later, Islam will have to renounce its claim to worldly power. And so, someday, will we. Excellent essay, and thanks for the history lesson.
Posted by: Steve Jones at June 7, 2003 10:36 PM

Very good read, one question though. When the Zealots finally committed suicide at the seige, didn't one survive? Remember reading that somewhere, just don't remember the source now. If so, makes the parallels that much more accurate. Just wonder who the possible survivor would be, President Hussan, Bin Laden, or President Bush...
Posted by: Killjoy (3 days, no sleep, too much web) at June 8, 2003 04:34 AM

This religious and cultural transformation is the real war America needs to win. Let's just hope the taming of Islam can be achieved by different methods, and at a lower cost, than Rome's triumph over Judaism.

Why does American need to win this war? Don't you hold out any hope that they can avoid fighting it in the first place?
Posted by: at June 8, 2003 09:01 AM

the tax cuts, for some reason, remind me of the bread and circuses of the roman empire...i had that vision just the other day and man was it shocking...


think about it...
Posted by: terry at June 8, 2003 11:04 AM

One could also say that the historical situation of what makes one a Jew that you bring up is still ongoing...the long process towards the creation of Israel was, in effect, a means towards reframing and restarting the debate. To some sense it's also now a matter of "We have this state, what is it's purpose?" To welcome back the diaspora, to be a religious state, an ethnic state (and all that that implies, good and bad), a secular state, or some combination of these options? Every state these days must face this set of options, really, but when the potent combination of strong religion and equally strong ethnicity happens, it makes things a whole lot more complicated.

And given that the Arab Muslim states have tended to believe itself in that same wilderness the Jews went through, if not forced into a diaspora (though I suspect more than a few Arabs and especially Palestineans would disagree with me most strongly over that point), this is a root cause of the primary conflict of the Middle East. Two very stubborn cultures, both convinced that they have suffered at the hands of others, both correct in this assumption, both demanding that the other step aside out of respect for their loss to achieve something new at the other's expense.
Posted by: Palamedes at June 8, 2003 11:36 AM

Rome we're not.

Jewish war was real bad for the Jews. It came to a head in I think 117 A.D. when a fanatic by the name Simon Bar Kochba convinced many Jews he was the messiah and a mssive uprising against Rome was the result.

Though the Jews never stopped to think how'd they defeat Rome when it was at its peak militarily.

Rome responded brutally. The Jews not killed or enslaved were dispersed throughout the empire and beyond.

This we won't do in Iraq. We barely have enough forces to deal with low level guerilla activity.
Dealing with full-on widely supported guerilla war is beyond our capacity.

I still think a better analogy is still Algeria when they were fighting for their independence from France. It was a bloody, nasty war, one which France did not forget.
Posted by: Rodger at June 8, 2003 12:23 PM

Why does American need to win this war? Don't you hold out any hope that they can avoid fighting it in the first place?

A fair question. By "war," I don't necessarily mean military conflict -- although since I'm not a pacifist I don't rule it out. What I'm talking about is the transformation of Islam into a religion that can coexist peacefully with other religions, and the gradual "enlightment" of Islamic culture to remove some of its more disagreeable feaures -- like the treatment of women. But most of all I'm talking about an Islam that renounces the fundamentalist dream of a theocratic Caliphate ruling the entire Muslim world -- if not the entire world.

This process (the Islamic Reformation) is already well underway. Al Qaeda and the fundamentalists are the Counter-Reformation. Their terror is directed as much at their fellow "secularized" Muslims as at the West. (Actually it's a bit more complex than that, since the fundamentalists are also playing off of deep-seated anti-imperalist resentments within the Arab world. But the religious issue is what I'm focusing on here.)

Not to sound too much like a bleeding heart liberal, but we need to focus on "root causes" here. Killing terrorists and invading countries won't do it -- and could make things worse, by giving the fundamentalists a better bogey man. If the recent Pew Global Opinion Survey is any guide, we appear to be doing a very good job of that.

All this is just my usual long-winded way of saying that we are in a war, or at least a struggle, for the reformation and enlightment of Islam. Maybe it's just a more subtle brand of imperialism, but realistically I don't know if we have any other choice -- since I don't think the penetration of the Muslim world by Western culture isn't a trend that anybody can stop.

Unfortunately, our foreign policy establishment -- neocon and neolib alike -- seem determined to make this war as prolonged and painful as possible.
Posted by: Billmon at June 8, 2003 12:56 PM

I guessed you didn't mean militarily, but still - what is the aim? To peacefully co-exist with the Islamic nations? Or to Westernize Islam, to get them to accept representative democracy above theocracy? In other words, are we doing it merely for our security, or because we think our system is better than theirs?

I think the former is fine. I think we have a right and a duty to protect our freedoms from predators, whether it's Islamists, Christian fundies, or Martians.

It's the latter I'm wary of. It seems that Western history has been one long course of meeting new cultures, deciding that because they're different they need to be made more like us or wiped out. We ****ed up the American Indian, the Australian Aboriginal, the Maori, and a bunch of African civilizations. At some point, I start to wonder if we're the problem, not the solution. Why should it be different when it comes to Islam?

I think secular representative democracies are good. In fact, I wish I lived in one :-) (UK, established Church and all that) but constantly telling the middle east that they are *wrong* for not embracing secularism, democracy, free markets, and everything that goes with it, is just going to piss off a lot of proud people - and it's a big reason, in my opinion, why huge swathes of people wish we'd stay the hell out of their lives.
Posted by: Keith at June 8, 2003 01:15 PM

Radical fundamentalism, just like radical politics depends on one thing: extreme alienation. A person doesn't embrace radical Islam or radical Christianity or the Weather Underground because he or she is feeling warm and fuzzy about their life and world.

The causes of this extreme alienation cannot be distilled into one or two diagnosis or explanations ("Why do they hate us?"). In some cases it's mental illness, in some cases criminal mindsets, in some cases pathological needs for control. The list goes on and on.

Last night I went to a wedding for my fundamentalist Christian co-worker. For 45 minutes I listened to a genial preacher talk about the need for the woman to submit herself to her husband and for the husband to submit himself to Jesus. Change that wedding into a group of profoundly alientated men (and women)and I could see the entire congregation raising spears to kill the "reasons" for their suffering.

They're out there. They will always be out there. And now with the internet they will find each other faster. The "new revolutionaries" aren't going to be assimilated or wiped out any time soon or ever.


Posted by: vachon at June 8, 2003 02:32 PM

The civil-war aspect of the Jewish war is still apt for Israel. I often think of Tovah Reich's 1995 novel "The Jewish War," about Israel at last rejecting the settlers, the zealots. It's a great book, out of print, but readily available used from Amazon: Amazon.com: The Jewish War: A Novel: Tova Reich: Books

Such a civil war often seems simmering here in the U.S., too. At Asia Times, there's a recent article proposing that the neocons have gone far beyond the atheist Leo Strauss and are in fact secret Islamists: Asia Times
As Oscar Wilde, said, you always kill the ones you love.
Posted by: Eric at June 8, 2003 09:21 PM

The civil-war aspect of the Jewish war is still apt for Israel.

Yep. You often hear the religious nationalist types sneering at the secular doves as "Hellenized Jews." Whereas they, of course, are the true sons of Maccabee.

If the external Arab threat did not exist, I often think Israel would have long since collapsed into a fratricidal war.
Posted by: Billmon at June 8, 2003 09:49 PM

Interesting analogy. Was there a constitency in the Roman Empire that matches that of the Christian right-wing?
Posted by: MattS at June 9, 2003 11:49 AM

"Was there a constituency in the Roman Empire that matches that of the Christian right-wing?"

Well, not exactly, since the Romans (At least at first) didn't go for any sort of faith that really required belief. However, the cult around the emperor, the conservatism of the Roman political elite, and the opposition to any sort of innovation might be close.

You could argue that the same mindset that today leads Fundies to reject science because it contradicts their bible, were evident in these Roman tendencies. For all of their technological might, after a certain point the Romans had a difficult time trusting any information that wasn't ancient. The result was a lack of new technological developments that eventually hindered the roman economy. Their distaste for new learning was evidenced by their pathetic lack of understanding for economics, on any level necessary to cope with the changes that would eventually rip the empire apart.

They also tended to brutally crush any dissenters, an evidenced by their treatment of Christians. Artists, politicians and poets who were deemed to be outside the bounds of Roman morality were exiled, or invited to commit suicide as soon as possible. Nothing got the Romans whipped up into a frenzy so much as a skillful orator (Like Augustus, for instance), conjuring up images of foreign sensualists, alien morality, and anti Roman behavior. Even the Emperors who practiced the worst abominations possible were known to invoke this moralism in order to curry public favor. (It helps to be worshiped as a god).

Of course, eventually Rome embraced Christianity, and these cultural strains were assimilated into what can only be called the Roman form of Christian Fundamentalism.
Posted by: Ross Angeles at June 10, 2003 12:47 PM

Naturally, all of that is a gross oversimplification, though one I think can be somewhat defended based on the historical record. I don't claim to be an expert, and I'm open to being slapped down if I'm wrong.
Posted by: Ross Angeles at June 10, 2003 12:51 PM

Rome did not become Christian until Constantine and the struggles and persecutions went on for centuries after that. Rome, at its worst, couldn't match the great auto-de-fas of the Reformation. Lesson: People just like to kill people and will find a reason. So why don't we just get out of the Middle East and leave them to it?
Posted by: JGeyer at June 11, 2003 12:51 PM

The Zealots and Masada are much more than a history lesson in Israel, they are a fundamental to the mythology of the nation. The IDF continues to use a grueling desert march culminating in an ascent of Masada as the final test of many training courses, including basic training.

Most tourists use the funicular.
Posted by: mark at June 14, 2003 06:38 PM

First of all islam is not a religion, instead it is a deen(way of life) the base of the islam is that the sole law giver, master, king,is ALLAH alone.man is sent on this earth as a caliph(vicergent) who's job is to simply implement the laws given by his master in this world.this require's the establishment of a caliphate, where the law of the land is neither democracy and neither is it theocracy.unlike the democracy of nowadays where what is right now will bwcome wrong tommorow, islamic sharia(law) is there for all the ages.it is like path who's limits are set by ALLAH that are not to be transgressed no matter even if hundred percent of the population goes against them.the islamic state's responsibility is to submit to ALLAH as well as bring the other nations within the bounds of the laws given by ALLAH to the mankind.this effort is know as qatal fe sabil ALLAH(fight in the name of ALLAH). It will continue till the day of judgement.
Posted by: IMRAN AKHTAR at June 20, 2003 06:51 PM

Thanks for sharing, Osama.
Posted by: Billmon at June 20, 2003 07:27 PM

if you are comparing america to rome, then let me give you a history lessson. in the second caliphate under the rule of umar, the muslims defeated the two super powers. the persian empire and the Roman empire. And through the grace of god they'll do it again.
Posted by: Joseph at August 1, 2003 04:47 AM

Having read all this My deduction is that there are some merits to this about the rulers in Islamic societies, where as the writer is not fully aware of the divine laws and therefore his opinion does not hold any merits as it is sorted and is based on his personal observation and is devoid of spirituality.

About His opinion on Islam again he is guided by rules set by west which thinks that being Davine and trusting Allah is not not needed as he lack insight to the divinity of spirit.

A massage sums it up qiute good about west as noted above by joseph Aug. 1st, 2008.

this an attempt to see the history from the prospect of a western born and bread individual and is therefore a good read for all Muslims., at some places some writers are totally oblivious of the facts that are fair and be considered yet these writers painstakingly try to come up with bogus claims and mock facts written by Muslims, one such fact written by a muslim is the fact that Muslims won wars against Romans and Persians, he totally and insultingly tries to ignore the fact. It is our duty to go to such sites and become members and put the truth forward.

Pleasde donot hasitat due tot the name of the site, we as Muslims can and sould wrie anywhere as long as we donot lie, insult and become party to their unacceptable acts per Islam.

For further reading please refer to the following web. page.

Whiskey Bar: Echoes of the Jewish War

[HULK]

Dear sir, i know your intentions were good, but please ager ye post kerna hi tha to thora si arq rezi aap bhi ker letey:)
ye lug raha hai ke kisi forum per jaari discussion ko aap ne as it is copy paste kiya aur yahan per post ker diya.

there is no hint as to what you waned to prove with this thread nor there is any hint as to is it simply islamic bashing or what?

apney views ke saath kuch post kerna ho to insaan copy paste bhi ekr raha ho to bhi chalta hai. i dont know whether this discussion contain your thoughts if you have joined there, but it would ahve been better if you had sorted this out and organized it.

furthermore, as for this very discussion, why are we having it at a muslim forum? if you want to emphasize about the islamic enemity of the kuffars, then we are well aware of that. by posting it here you are actually giving it a wind of popularity. i would not do anything remotely similar if i were you. kuffar to bohat kuch kehtey rehtey hain, un ki her baat ko to hum nahin yahan laa saktey hain na:)

merey opinion se to totally useless thread hai ye. unless you have a point that you want to discuss here

[ASQR]

Mr. hulk. This a post as a paste from a web board and i have put its adress on it, my recomendation was for us Muslims to go to these posts and take part in these to put the truth forward.

And that is exectly what i said and are saying now, If there is a post like this than please move this to that place and let us continue discussing about these kind of web pages and posts to put our views and truth when it is ceoncerning Islam and Pakistan.

May Allah S.W.T. help us be couragious and truthfull. Ameen